October 15, 2000 Humble Messenger
Humble Messenger
a) What was necessarily immoral in the case of Mt.18:15-18? Would that have to be something immoral?
b) Is not working "immoral"? 2 Th. 3:6-15
c) Is covetous "immoral"? 1 Co. 5:11
d) Is false teaching necessarily "immoral"? Rom. 16:17
e) Can a man be "factious" without being "immoral"? Tit. 3:10,11
f) "Immorality" is just one of the things that a man may persist in that would make him a subject of church discipline.
2) Doesn't the sin a person is guilty of have to be of such that it
is bringing open reproach upon the church both from within and without?
An unstated philosophy...? "As long as it is not bringing reproach on the church,
ignoring it is the best way to deal with it"...?
a) What about Mt. 18? Why would there be a need for witnesses to confirm it and to "tell it to the church" if it was open and evident?
b) Could a man be "covetous" (1 Co. 5:11) without bringing public reproach upon the church? The same is true with several of these sins if the person kept it secret. He might be a fornicator and only a few know it. Would he be a subject of discipline if he refused to repent?
c) Paul reproved the church at Corinth because they had let this conduct go on without doing anything about it, 1 Co. 5:1,2. It was not that it was now "commonly reported" (KJV) that was the reason they should now act. The fornicator should have already been "removed from their midst."
d) One purpose of discipline is to save the soul of the sinner, 1 Co. 5:5, Mt. 18:11,15. The soul may be in jeopardy before the sin reaches the magnitude of public reproach.
3) Doesn't 2 Th. 3 mention that these people were
"busybodies," and therefore we only withdraw from those who are "causing
trouble" in the church?
E.g., "It's between 'them,' or between him and the Lord; we ought not get
involved unless it involves us" (i.e. unless we are forced to be involved).
a) What is meant by "causing trouble"?
i) Actively stirring unrest? Actively inciting division? If a man decides to worship idols in his home, by himself, and agrees not to teach his views or even speak of them to others, would he be a subject for punitive discipline? 1 Co. 5:11. Apply the same to drunkenness, sexual immorality, etc.
ii) If a brother lies against another brother, who should we discipline ‹the liar, or the brother who "caused trouble" by bringing it to the church (Mt. 18:15-18)?
b) Being a "busybody" may certainly "cause trouble in the church." However, any sin persisted in and ignored "causes trouble":
i) A soul will be lost eternally.
ii) Others may be influenced to follow the bad example.
iii) Faithful people may become discouraged by the sin of the unrepentant.
iv) The church becomes guilty for not doing its duty, 1 Co. 5; Rev. 2:14-16,20.
Thus the need to define "causing trouble." In one sense it is not the criterion for punitive discipline. In another sense, it is true of all sin to be punished by the church.
c) Was the fact that the non-workers in Thessalonica were "busybodies" material to the command to withdraw from them? Consider:i) If they refused to work, but minded their own business, would they have been "leading an unruly life ('walking disorderly' KJV) and not according to the tradition" which they received from the apostles (v. 6)?
ii) If they quit being busybodies, but yet refused to work, would they be "obeying our instruction in this letter" (v. 14)? If your answer is "no," were they to be " "withdrawn from," "noted," and "admonished"? (vv. 6,14,15)
iii) Note: Becoming a busybody was evidently not unnatural behavior for someone not working and idle (remember they had no computers or TV's!). Compare 1 Tim. 5:13.
d) When people in the church are allowed to sin willfully without censure, it can cause more trouble than we first realize.
(More questions in coming editions.) srf
October 18 - Wednesday
Announcements: Wally Ottersbach
Song Leader: Craig Ottersbach
Close: Jim Crain
October 22 - Sunday
AM
Announcements: Rocky Rodriguez
Song Leader: Boyd Hurst
First Prayer: Kris Emerson
Preaching: Steve Fontenot
Closing Prayer: Fred Ferguson
PM
Song Leader: David Dickey
First Prayer: Bill Faulkner
Preaching: Steve Fontenot
Closing Prayer: Michael Gove
Lord's Table, AM & PM
Bread: Jiim Crain
Fruit of the Vine:
Contribution: Jeff Bogs
Assistant: John Cannon